Snark

[mishalak]

One time this really serious Wicca person was explaining to me in the consuite about how the whole bible was a fraud created by Constantine. I was being reasonable (in the sense that I just tried to explain to her that her version of the Council of Nice with a phony miracle performed by Constantine had no intersection with reality, with minimal eye rolling), but what I really wanted to say was, "Oh and I suppose that Wicca isn't just a bunch of stuff Gerald Gardner made up and mixed with notes he cribbed from Aleister Crowley?" When it comes right down to it arguments between Catholics and Wiccans are essentially all-powerful-sky-father-figure vs. all-knowing-earth-mother-figure, may the best invisible friend win.

Comments

[chadu.livejournal.com]

When it comes right down to it arguments between Catholics and Wiccans are essentially all-powerful-sky-father-figure vs. all-knowing-mother-mother-figure, may the best invisible friend win.

Now that's funny.


CU

[mishalak.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

[aylinn.livejournal.com]

1) I think you mean all-powerful-sky-father-figure vs. all-knowing-earth-mother-figure

and

2) and from that type of perspective, wouldn't it be more like "My Mother deity & her family can beat up your Father deity & his family!"

which of course has functionally been proven to be untrue - Mainly because that particular Father deity has a LOT of family to bring to the fight. *G*

Thus speaks the Wiccan priestess married to the good Catholic.

Seriously though, Constantine was responsible for a lot of codification of Christian beliefs through his mother Helena's pilgrimage and the Nicene Council. And while you are essentially correct about Gardner, I think it's more of he & Crowley both cribbed from the same sources rather than one from the other. I'd have to triplecheck the latest chain of research.

Sorry if I spoiled the snark.

[mishalak.livejournal.com]

Thanks, corrected.

And while Constantine comes into the mix she was totally wrong that he created the New Testament in some sort of phony miracle at the Council of Nice (it wasn't even on the agenda). For starters the New Testament wasn't even made official and dogmatic until the Council of Trent in 1563(!), though it had long been mostly settled before then. And the first time the idea of the four gospels being the official ones showed up before Constantine was born, Irenæus wrote about it around 188. It was a whole evolution over a very long time thing.

[aylinn.livejournal.com]

oh, granted things evolved. and you're right.

While some people might consider it a minor miracle that the Council of Nicaea agreed on anything and that Constantine was largely responsible for forcing them to agree on something he isn't a saint (St. Constantine is a cornish king - I just checked.) and the Nicene Creed, while agreed to be the earliest dogmatic statement of Christian orthodoxy, is not the New Testament. I think you can "blame" Eusebius more for the New Testament than Constantine.

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=612
http://www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/Canon/canon.html

So there's some ammo if you run into her again.

and here's some for the other side:
http://www.geraldgardner.com/essays.php

one of the essays listed on that site is 'The Influence of Aleister Crowley upon "Ye Bok of ye Art Magical"' so have fun.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

Could I pleeeeeeeeease Metaquote you on that last line? :)

[mishalak.livejournal.com]

Well okay, since this one is unlocked and I just fixed it.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[mishalak.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. I needed a good public snark because the employee handbook project I'm working on has me so damn tempted to slip in subversive commentary. That would not be good for getting paid.

Here from Metaquotes

[aten-ra.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity, had the really serious Wicca person just finished reading The Da Vinci Code?

Re: Here from Metaquotes

[mishalak.livejournal.com]

I don't think so... this sounded a lot more like a home grown pagan conspiracy theory rather than one from a best selling novel. According to her the lights went out or something and all the non-canonical texts that had been piled up were spirited away and what was left were the accepted versions.

[armoire-man.livejournal.com]

When it comes right down to it arguments between Catholics and Wiccans are essentially all-powerful-sky-father-figure vs. all-knowing-earth-mother-figure, may the best invisible friend win.

The R. U. Sirius podcast had an interview with a staunch and devout atheist who just released a documentary concerning how Christ was completely fictional from the git-go. Yay.

[mishalak.livejournal.com]

I don't think Jesus was fictional. For one thing his brother seems to be somewhat well documented as figures of the time go. However I do think that he didn't regard himself as the son of god. I think that that got appended on later. He probably viewed himself as a rabbi working for God to bring greater freedom to the Jews in the Roman Empire and reform Judaism.

[inqueery.livejournal.com]

My invisible friend is better than yours!!

nyahh!!!

[mishalak.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah? Well let's have a fight about it where we tear off each other's clothes!