A Ripe Old Age

[mishalak]

Nobody kept statistics about what people died of and when before the modern era. So I don't know why people still insist that the low average age of death was because of childhood death and if a person got out of childhood he or she would live to a ripe old age. Picking at random the kings from William I to Henry VIII in England and running the numbers I find that the average age of death, excluding those murdered or who fell in battle, to be 52 years of age and change.

And I'm not entirely sure excluding the violent deaths to be entirely legitimate. Life was a lot more violent than in modern western nations. If included that drops the average another two years.

It also seems from historical records that in their 40s men were considered old and not as able. Probably equivalent to what we think of people in the 50s today. And unless exceptionally vigorous a person in their 50s was quite old and about ready to be struck down by a serious illness.

So unless magic is common enough to take the place of medical technology I tend to fault fantasy that has people routinely living into their 70s as they do in modern times.

Comments

[minnehaha.livejournal.com]

50s? Old? Tee hee.

K.

[mishalak.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Old. In modern times people don't get called young after age 40 unless they die then. After age 50 they don't even get a "oh he died so young". Though people tend to still be healthy then. I could see pushing up old to 55-65, but age 50 certainly isn't young. I expect to be dead by age 55.

[don-fitch.livejournal.com]

Not routinely, no. But then, one of the criteria for _good_ fantasy is sometimes held to be retention of reality in the non-fantasic parts of the background setting. Perhaps we're dealing with the question of how much fantasy writing is good. Of course, a few people have always lived to be (objectively?) old -- though I have some doubts about the age ascribed to a character named "Methusalah" in one widely-popular fantasy book.

Also subject to questioning, I think, is the youthful attitude and behavior of (historical) fantasy characters in, say, their mid- or late-twenties. They have been living under the full obligations and responsibilities of being adults since they were sixteen years old, and maybe fourteen. To see them behaving like modern adolescents strains one's ability to suspend disbelief. But then, so does the presence of more than (at most) one or two people who evidence the sensibilities of a liberal 21st-century American. (The latter are also all too common in historical mysteries, but they seem to include almost all of The Good Guys in modern fantasy.)

[mishalak.livejournal.com]

Yeah the modern attitudes thing gets me too.

I don't suppose a fantasy would have to adhere to being historically accurate in terms of ages, but it ought to change things. I mean if due to generally more robust constitutions people live to be 75 routinely I'd expected differences in the society. Like more conservative cautious kings who rule from age 55 to age 75 as just a first thought.

Also there is some question in my mind as to how reasonable teens can be even if entrusted with responsibility at an earlier age. It helps perhaps, but certainly if the behavior of young nobles in the middle ages are any standard they acted almost as badly as teens do today. Everything is the end of the world, whole kingdoms thrown over for love, etc... Though if historically based a fantasy should portray children as mostly being done with most schooling by age 15 and on to entry-level jobs and marriage shortly thereafter. Though I'd be interested to know if the age of 21 was considered the age of majority in medieval settings as it was in the enlightenment.

[thette.livejournal.com]

I'm not so sure what I think about this.

People did die of infectious diseases, something that can strike at any age. Cancer was uncommon, which indicates that people died younger.

However, there are records of certain illnesses common in the elderly from at least medieval times, and often classical times. Such as, for example, prostate hyperplasy.

[mishalak.livejournal.com]

But how common was it? From the list I worked from to get my ballpark numbers there were more than a few that reached age 60. It's just that a lot of people also died at age 40.

I also suspect it was not just disease caused by infectious disease that was doing these people in. Apparently if a person is subjected to poor nutrition (and even royals had that at times, like in the winter without having vitamins from fresh vegetables), working extremely hard (I mean like 14 hour days 6 days a week hard), or both it prematurely ages people. So while diseases like cancer might not be present other diseases of old age certainly would be.

If you're interested here is the list I worked up:

William I- 60 years
William II- 44 years
Henry I- 67 years
Stephen of England- 58 years
Henry II- 56 years
Richard I- 41 years
John of England- 49 years
Henry III- 65 years
Edward I- 68 years
Edward II- 43 years (murdered)
Edward III- 64 years
Edward, the Black Prince- 46 years
Richard II- 33 years (murdered)
Henry IV- 45 years
Henry V- 35 years
Henry VI- 49 years
Edward IV- 41 years
Richard III- 33 years (died in battle)
Henry VII- 52 years
Henry VIII- 55 years

[magentamn.livejournal.com]

We don't know that cancer was uncommon. Some forms require modern medical tests and/or an autopsy to determine. And until recently, people were really squicked about cutting up dear old Dad to see why he died. From what I've read, modern public health - clean water, disposal of wastes away from sources of water, killing disease bearing insects - are more responsible for increased life-span than anything else.

[thette.livejournal.com]

We do know cancer was uncommon, because most people died from other reasons (and I'm not counting "wasting").

But yes, you're right about public health, and that's evident in parts of the world today.